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Case Study

Confucius & Western Historical Philosophers-A Stutdy Meetup (sic)
http://www.meetup.com/confuciusandotherphilosophers/

Organiser

“pete” (possibly not his real name)

Location: Sydney
Hometown: san francisco (sic)

Organizer of this Meetup Group since January 21, 2010

Introduction

I am interested in philosophy and different cultures, I feel only reason and logics [sic] can save the humanity [sic] in the end. ‘We may take fancy for a companion, but must follow Reason as our guide’. Samuel Johson [sic]

Reading is to find out whether what you are trying to address, has been addressed.

Reading is to find out whether what you are trying to address was already addressed by someone 100 ago [sic] or not.
Please read the philosopher we specify before the meeting otherwise listen and learn . Please do not join this group if you do not agree to observe this simple rule.

Premise

STUDY ONE PHILOSOPHER A MEETUP- 50 philosphers after 50 meetups.

…

THIS IS THE SOLE INTENT OF THIS PHILOSOPHY STUDY MEETUP, LET’S STUDY ONE PHILOSOPHER AT A TIME (AT A MEETING) ALONG THE HISTORICAL TIME FRAME SO AFTER 50 MEETUPS YOU WILL KNOW 50 HISTORICAL PHILOSOPHERS. READING IS TO FIND OUT WHETHER WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS HAS ALREADY BEEN ADDRESSED.

Slightly out-of-place bignoting in the second sentence

The first study meeup [sic] will kick off early May [sic] due to my extensive overseas travel schedule.

Conditions

Anyone interested in studying philosophy are [sic] all [sic] welcome to attend our meeting, the only condition is that you must do some reading about the philosopher we specify before the meeting ( I will highly recommend ‘History Of Western Philosophy’ by Bertrand Russell or’ Think’ by Simon Balckburn [sic]), [sic] Those who might not have time to read are still allowed to attend our meeting provided you [sic] are refraining [sic] from making speech [sic] (you can ask questions during the question time).
At last, please do respect your fellow members, the host will impose a time limit for each speaker and interruption is strictly not permitted during each time limited speech. And again a talking turtle is definitely not welcome.

Chosen text (from the discussion board)

our study text book ‘ ‘History Of Western Philosophy’ by Bertrand Russell

Dear Fellow philosophy students,

I have decided to name ‘History Of Western Philosophy’ by Bertrand Russell as our core text book for our future philosophy study as it fits the aim of this study group, the whole contents of this book was [sic] narrated along strict historical time frame. Moreover, it was used as the core text book for philosophy major study in [sic] Sydney University. I will highly recommend you to grab a soft copy instead of a hard copy, it is easier to carry around so you can read it more often. ( please use eBay to order a second hand copy to save money).

cheers

pete

Okay then, it seems a little strict, but reasonable enough for me to be interested, so I join the group. I spend some time looking for some reference to this “talking turtle” idea, and discover an old story about a turtle who dies by not being able to control their talking, and decide to see if I can find out something about the chosen textbook before getting too involved. Of course Wikipedia has an article about it, which can be found here:

Wikipedia: A History of Western Philosophy

The article is not at all favourable. I decided to post my concern about the choice of text, based on this article (yes, aware that Wikipedia is not by any means a gold standard source), including snippets from the article, asking if there is a better alternative.

I’m not an expert, but my general impression is that the basis of philosophy is asking questions. Not on Meetup.com, it isnt. For my interest and my query, I earned myself a ban:

From: Meetup
To: subpixel
Subject: You’ve been removed from Confucius & Western Historical Philosophers-A Stutdy Meetup
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:41:57 -0400

You have been removed from Confucius & Western Historical Philosophers-A Stutdy Meetup. The person who removed you, pete, said:
—————————————————————-
The Organizer has just removed you from the group. Yes, it is only one of the history of philosophy books and there are definitely various reviews regarding the quality of this book, however I will consider carefully your views if your comment is based on your actual reading of any specific content of this book, rather than from Leo Robertss and William J. Kenan Professor’s views. Philosophically speaking, how much do you know the academic credentials of Leo Robertss and William J. Kenan Professor?

READ THE BOOK, THEN MAKE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT. GOOK LUCK WITH  YOUR Wikipedia.
—————————————————————-

Well, that was unexpected. I don’t follow the logic in how someone who doesn’t know much about philosophy is expected to be in a position to judge the relative merit of a book on the subject just by reading it and not using some external reference, but I decide (foolishly?) to press on.

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:55:08 +1000
From: subpixel
To: “pete”
Subject: Re: You’ve been removed from Confucius & Western Historical Philosophers-A Stutdy Meetup

Hi Pete,

I thought I had mad it clear that I am not an expert at all; I just happened to read one article on Wikipedia (which I am aware is subject to bias, etc), and that article gave a very unfavourable review. It’s claim is that even the author of the book acknowledged that the book has problems. There is also mention of later book by the same author which addresses at least one of those problems.

I was under the impression that you are also not an expert, and that, if you didn’t otherwise know much about the book or other books in the field, before you devote a significant period of study to it, or base your studies on it, you would want to be made aware of what other people have to say about it. A quick estimation is that the Wikipedia article on an apparently well-known book by an apparently well-known philosopher would likely have credible references – I openly admit that I have not verified them myself, and I welcome you to investigate them for yourself if you are deeply concerned. On that basis, I therefore also estimate that the cited people know more about philosophy than either of you or I, and am inclined to at least consider their opinion.

The only information I took from your comments on it that it was used by the University of Sydney. Perhaps that is true, and perhaps – even if the book is not of a particularly good quality, as the Wikipedia article seems to suggest – there is a reason for that, and it must be considered that in the context of a university course there is a lecturer, most likely a professor with great understanding of the subject, who can (and hopefully will) advise of any shortcomings in the text; if we do not have such expert guidance, we could well be led far astray.

If you do have some additional information as to why these reviews should be ignored (possibly they are fabricated, perhaps those people aren’t experts, perhaps their opinions are taken out of context or were subsequently revised or retracted… any number of possibilities could exist), then please express them. I took an interest in your philosophy group because you appear to be wanting to start ‘from the beginning’ with a group of non-learned people sharing the same journey. I have been considering taking that journey for some time, and am cautious, knowing that it is such a vast subject, against heading off in a ‘bad’ direction.

Sincerely,
George Webeck
Sydney

I’m supposing here that people interested in philosophy are interested in thoughtful explanations, are open to debate and reason.

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:53:49 +1000
Subject: Re: You’ve been removed from Confucius & Western Historical Philosophers-A Stutdy Meetup
From: “pete”
To: subpixel

Hi George,

Thank you for your email and suggestions. It seems to me you felt a bit upset, Yes, you are 100% right I am not an expert at all, I am only a student starting a long philosophy study journey; all members are called philosophy students. So what is a wise way to choose an important text book which we all are going to devote our time to study the next a few years?

First, find out how the most prestige academic institution chooses its text book; second read the book and I have been reading last 18 months. So this is the reason of my decision. However, I do not substitute reading reviews to real in depth reading and understanding of important works like’ The History Of Western Philosophy ‘, I do read review before I go to see a movie or go to an expensive restaurant. Of course, reading is enjoyable but it is not like watching a DVD, it is very time consuming, lonely, hard work sometimes. Our life span is very limited, reading is to find out whether what we are trying to address, has already been addressed, so we do not embarrass ourselves to claim how creative we are in creating the same ideas. Let’s appreciate our precious time, catching some more reading as we speak.

cheers

pete

Okay, I think I see the problem here… I didn’t know “pete” had already dedicated a year and a half of his very limited life span to this book (or did he mean he’d been reading other philosophy books in the past 18 months?). As a side issue: it is important to read movie and restaurant reviews (for subjective, short-lived entertainment experiences), and not important to read reviews of educational information (for very time consuming, lonely hard work); Our time is precious, so let’s appreciate it. Hold on a second, did I read that backwards, or is it opposites day again? I’m really impressed with this guy’s logic and reasoning. *head explodes*

Calling a spade a spade:

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:48:23 +1000
From: subpixel
To: “pete”
Subject: Re: You’ve been removed from Confucius & Western Historical Philosophers-A Stutdy Meetup

Hi Pete,

I think now I better understand why you chose to bar me from the group.

Obviously I had no idea you have been studying the book already for 18 months, so there was no intention from me to say that you are a fool for doing so (based on one Wikipedia article, however accurate it may or may not be). However, you have taken it personally, and rather than invite someone who is asking questions you choose to exclude them. You have invested your belief in that text, and my raising questions about the text is taken as a personal attack on yourself.

I’m sorry you feel that way, and suggest that your current depth of study has not served you well in being able to relate to your fellow man.

George

Just in case I may have had the wrong idea about our “pete”, he further enlightened me with his enlightenment:

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:04:44 +1000
Subject: Re: You’ve been removed from Confucius & Western Historical Philosophers-A Stutdy Meetup
From: “pete”
To: subpixel

Hi George,

I think you need to get a life and leave me alone to read my books, I have no problem with you or any of my members commenting on the text book I chose, but please base your comments on your actual readings !!! You have wasted my time and your own time, why not spend that much time reading a few lines of that book. By the way I read 5 books a week and have no time with fools like you. Yes, sick mind like you will be banned forever from my group, go take a walk and any future emails of yours will be sent to my email toilet.

cheers

pete

I am humbled by the 5-books-a-week god. I wonder if he is a vengeful god?

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 21:32:48 +1000
From: subpixel
To: “pete”
Subject: Re: You’ve been removed from Confucius & Western Historical Philosophers-A Stutdy Meetup

And you thought I was upset.

-George.

* * * * *

Closing Comments

In case you’re wondering why I chosen to point out some errors in quotes at the top of this post (by marking with “[sic]“, sic being a Latin word meaning “thus”, “so”, “as such”, or “in such a manner”), I was inspired by a post “pete” made on the Message Board of another Meetup.com group he has created, CITYMOMENTS-An Intellectual and Fine Cultural Dinner Group:

My Sincere Apology
http://www.meetup.com/anintellectualfineculturalgroup/messages/boards/thread/8964216/

Posted Apr 19, 2010 4:03 AM

Dear Fellow Members,

Recently, I have sent [sic] you an email regarding using formal English with proper spelling and grammar. However, some members just informed me that I also made a spelling mistake in my email message, [sic] I like to take this opportunity to apologize [sic] to you all.

Philosophically speaking, will I change the rule of using proper language? [er, I'm sure that deserves a sic] If we forgive ourselves and refuse to rectify our own defects because we point out other people have the same defects, then we will become people full of defects. If you do not have time, use the spelling check but stop using technology to abuse, to trash classic languages.

cheers
pete

Sounds like someone is a talking turtle and needs to pull their fucking head in. Personally, I’m not offended if someone makes spelling and grammatical mistakes. I make loads. Maybe English isn’t his first/only language. I don’t mind. Hey, I can only speak English. Anyone who speaks more than one language has my admiration, perhaps envy, for that ability. But “pete”, you can’t in all seriousness harass people for their use of English when yours is so flawed. If you really need someone to spank you for your misdeeds, perhaps you can do that in private; don’t take it out on others. Get a capital P for your proper pronoun for a start if you want anyone to take you seriously on that matter. You can take that advice free. You might also want to check the spelling in the title of your philosophy Meetup group.

“pete” is by no means unique in his ruling of his Meetup.com group; I’ve had this problem before. Ask a question that the organiser doesn’t like and *boom!* You’re out. What the hell is wrong with people? I reckon there should be some sort of reputation system built into Meetup.com to bring these monkeys to people’s attention. As it stands, there doesn’t seem to be anywhere for me to leave a negative opinion. I’ve been censored – my original post in the group has been removed, perhaps automatically due to my ban, or perhaps specifically removed by “pete” lest my questioning prompt anyone else in the group to ask questions – and apparently have no recourse… at least not on site, hence you find my lovely story here. :o)

“pete” might also be known as “james didi”; at least that’s the name that appears from his gmail account. This little note should help him to find this post when he goes a-googlin’…

-spxl

Posted in: Groups, Personal Education, Reflection by subpixel / Tags: Meetup.com, pete